Peggy Griffith: 0:10

Hey everybody. Welcome back to Next Door Gospel. I'm your host, Peggy Griffith, and I'm so delighted that you are choosing to spend a portion of your day with us. Whether you're listening while driving somewhere, doing chores, or just taking a break for yourself, I hope you are all doing wonderfully and enjoying some of the new light and life that the springtime offers. Today we're going to listen into part two of my conversation with my friend Matt, who identifies as an atheist. But first, I wanna express my appreciation to Matt for being willing to explore some open dialogue about his journey. It takes a lot of courage, not just to be a guest on a podcast, but to share such a personal part of one's life with others who likely have a pretty strong feeling about the subject matter. And I've also gotten some great feedback from you, on Part one, and I love it. I appreciate hearing how these conversations resonate with you. I hope these episodes spark some important thought and further dialogue regarding how we might approach our understanding of people who believe differently than we do. And as I mentioned in the prior episode, neither Matt nor I set out to convince or convert one another to our own ways of thinking. There are some very meaningful conclusions, lessons, and insights that we can gain when we actively listen to one another. So let's listen in. So prior to this podcast, I reached out to several friends and asked them if you could ask an atheist anything, what would it be? And I know you're a good sport, you've always been a good sport. So I'd like to ask one of the main questions, that were coming up and being asked, and that is, what framework or foundation do you apply? When approaching questions of ethics and morality in your life.

Matt Adams: 2:17

Sure. And, and there's another, you know, probably fairly famous quote that I would love to take credit for, but it's probably been said by many atheists over the years and, um, someone asked an atheist. What's to stop you from raping and murdering all that you want to, which the atheist would respond. I do rape and murder all I want. It just so happens that the amount that I want is zero because I'm a good person and I wouldn't want anyone to do those things to me. So. I tend to think that trying to follow the Bible as a source of morality is okay, and there's definitely a lot of good stuff in there, but there's also a lot of things that society has determined are no longer acceptable. Perfect examples are slavery and polygamy. Things that in biblical times were perfectly normal and were even written about. As if it were just common things. But now society has changed and. Whether I was religious or not, whether I was an atheist or not, I personally would not agree with owning slaves or with having multiple spouses. So where I get my guidance from is I think where a lot of people truly get their guidance from, and it's covered in almost every religion. So there's a chart that I saw one time that I would love to post on my wall, and it had. Religious symbols from maybe 15, 20 different religions, and it had the quote from that religious text for that religion pertaining to the golden rule. So pretty much every religion has a form of the golden rule, and in many cases, it's actually almost the exact same phrasing. It's do unto others as you'd have done to you. I agree with that and I tend to think that, I would not want someone to steal from me, so I will not steal from someone else. I would not want someone to murder me, so I won't murder anyone else. I would want others to treat me with respect, so I will treat others with respect. If I did have things that were against the religion that I was doing, for example, if I were gay, which I'm not, but I have no objection to it. If I were gay, would I want to be penalized for that as exists in many societies, including some Christian families where, you know, many homosexual teens and. And, older have been ostracized from their families. In many countries, they may be put in jail or even put to death. Me personally, if I were gay, I would not want to be put to death or be put in jail for it. So I wouldn't want to, expect that of anyone else that was not committing a crime that impacted other people. So that's probably where I get it from.

Peggy Griffith: 5:16

me too.

Matt Adams: 5:17

Yeah.

Peggy Griffith: 5:18

Yeah. Yeah. Fair. Very fair. Many people, of faith describe personal experiences that feel like divine encounters, answered prayers or a sense of a presence among them. Growing up in a family with a strong faith background and having some of the experiences that you did, I would imagine you have experienced or witnessed, some of these types of things yourself. And how do you make sense of these experiences from your perspective now?

Matt Adams: 5:50

Well, I think there's a lot of things that could be attributed to divine intervention or seen as an answer or prayer simply because they worked out the way that we wanted. Uh, you know, we mentioned before that if things work out the way we wanted, we might say, oh, it's an answer to prayer. I. If they don't, we might just say, well, it's part of God's plan and we don't quite understand what that means. One of the songs, I think that, that, brings this up is Garth Brooks had a song about unanswered prayer and the, in the song he's singing about how he goes to a high school football game and he runs into his old high school girlfriend. And, when he was in high school, he had wanted nothing more than to be with this girl and wanted to marry her, wanted to be with her forever, and. Things didn't work out that way. And instead he ended up meeting his current wife and they fell in love. And when he tried to look back on his memories from high school with this other girl, he couldn't really think of much that was really all that spectacular compared to what he'd experienced as a result. So it certainly would be possible to say, well, God clearly had a hand in this. And he drew, the situation, realized that this. Person was not correct for me and that I should be with this other person. But then it's also important to remember that, you know, no offense to Garth, but he's also been divorced and married several times. And maybe it's not God's hand, but it's really just things that worked out in the way that they did. Another example is I remember a situation when I was, still going to church where a friend that was very religious, prayed and prayed and prayed about a job that they really wanted, and they got the job. And of course it was a, an answer to prayer, but it didn't come out of nowhere. I mean, he also spent a lot of time learning the things he needed for the job, doing the background on the company, learning the skills that he needed so that when he went to apply for the job, he was the correct fit for it. There's another quote that I like. It's actually from Pope Francis where he said, first you pray for the hungry, then you feed them. That's how prayer works. I think too often we fall into the habit of, sending our prayers when we don't want to do anything else. And I, I won't go into a ton of examples on that, but, you know, there's definitely situations where someone might say, well, I'm praying for you, or, sending my thoughts and prayers, but they're not actually doing anything to improve the situation. And so, to me that's not quite how prayer works. You first, you pray for the hungry and then you feed them because that's how prayer works.

Peggy Griffith: 8:34

Yeah. Well, and, and you're right. And Pope Francis, makes a very good point there.'Cause that's a very fascinating insight and it is so easy to lean on. I mean, prayer is one of those things, at least for me, it's a part of my life of, I, I feel like every day I have conversations with God that are in my heart. I'm not out. Walk in the streets, people like who's she talking to? But it's just part of my everyday dialogue.

Matt Adams: 9:01

Mm-hmm.

Peggy Griffith: 9:03

it's really easy to, Hey, hey, I'm kind of in this rough situation. I need to find a way out of it. God, I, help me, deliver me from this rough situation. It's easy to say I prayed, but nothing happened. And, I read a quote I from CS Lewis said very similar to what Pope Francis said, said, I don't pray to change God, it changes me.

Matt Adams: 9:34

That's a good one.

Peggy Griffith: 9:36

So I think there's quite a parallel in our thinking there. And I think it's something that those of us who are Christians it need to kind of remember is that when we are praying, it's, we're praying to for ourselves to change. We're not asking for, you know, God to wave some pixie dust and,

Matt Adams: 9:59

Yeah.

Peggy Griffith: 10:00

every, everything magically gets better.

Matt Adams: 10:03

Well, I think in one of our conversations years ago, we had talked about, maybe we had talked about it more recently, but we had talked about prayer and if someone were to say they were praying for me for something like if some of your followers were listening to the podcast and, wanted to say a silent prayer for me, that I would turn around or that I would change my beliefs or whatever that happened to be. I was at a. Anniversary gathering from my parents many years ago. And one of the, members of the church said, oh, we're praying for you on a regular basis. And one way to take that might be, we don't like you, we want you to change, but it could also mean we want what's best for you, and we are concerned with you and we want, what would be the best outcome for you? So. Different atheists might react differently to that. So if someone came up to them and said, I'm praying for you. Well, an atheist who's a jerk might say, well, why don't you? You don't wanna talk to your imaginary friend or whatever. I personally wouldn't, as long as I knew that the person meant it from their heart and that they actually did care about me, did care about my wellbeing, and truly wanted the best. For me and we're praying for, I would be very moved by that. I would be very appreciative. I think it's a powerful thing. Prayer has been proven to have positive effect on people. Even if it's a, like taking a placebo pill. Even if it's just that you believe that it will work, the fact that it works can't be denied. And so to that, I think it's a very good thing altogether. And an atheist might see it more as meditation rather than prayer. Maybe it's just a silent, thought to myself about how things are going and how they could be improved and if there's anything I could do to improve them. Whereas a Christian might see that as prayer to a higher power to a God. Then all the better. It's almost definitely gonna have a good outcome no matter what.

Peggy Griffith: 12:11

Yeah. Would you say that in your view that your parents or me or those who, have a belief in God, would you say that they are mistaken in their beliefs or just interpreting a human experience through a different lens?

Matt Adams: 12:33

Well, I don't think that beliefs can be wrong, really. I think that's a very deep question, but I don't think that you are wrong or that you are mistaken, or that anyone in my parents' church or in my extended fam, I don't believe that anyone is wrong. I think that some people have stronger senses of faith than others, and I can only commend them for that. I cannot put them down for that. I think that's a positive thing. When there are things that I couldn't personally be satisfied by, others may be able to use their faith to kind of fill in the gaps, and I think that's perfectly fine. I personally couldn't. And maybe that's a shortcoming on my side. But you know, others have had different experiences in life. I strongly encourage people to follow their beliefs. You know, you were talking about divine intervention. Many people think that they've had direct communication or experiences that prove that God is real and I would never try to. Negate that or try to talk them out of it or try to explain why I disagree. And, if there was ever a situation where religion was, legally mandated or forbidden, I would have. I would have major issue with that. I, if someone said, that Peggy, you can't believe in God because we are no longer a Christian country. I mean, that's not indicative of current times, but there's certainly been some, government situations where that's been the case and where believers are, know, forced into. Denying their faith or things like that. And I would have a great concern about that. If someone said you couldn't believe in God, or that, you couldn't worship Vishnu or that you couldn't handle snakes as part of your religion or whatever the case might be, I personally wouldn't find that acceptable. I think that your experiences are just as valid as mine. And I certainly wouldn't agree with anyone who would try to take that away from you or say that you're wrong.

Peggy Griffith: 14:44

That makes sense. And I think, when we've talked about that in the past, the idea being is that, as well, you wouldn't want to have it forced on you, um, on the, on the opposite side of that to it be like, well, it's Christianity and that, and that's it. And it's forced on you whether you believe it or you don't. Yeah. Now, over the years I've known you and I know that we share a lot of common values, and you have supported a lot of causes that you care about. I have seen you run literally hundreds. Have you reached a thousand miles? I bet you have.

Matt Adams: 15:22

Oh, year, years ago, I'm sure.

Peggy Griffith: 15:24

Yes. Yeah, I have seen you just run miles and miles and miles to raise money for incredible charities. Uh, so when it comes to doing good in the world, what areas do you see for potential collaboration between religious and non-religious people? I.

Matt Adams: 15:38

Well, actually it's interesting because I listened to one of your recent podcasts. I believe it was with Patty from, the Red Cross and, about disaster recovery. And to me, I think there's a lot of, there's a lot of overlap of causes that are very good causes, regardless of your religion. And really it comes down to what you have a personal connection with, either direct or indirect. You use the example in that podcast, about how your area had been affected by a flood and the Red Cross had, helped out in the area, so you had good feelings towards the Red Cross. Someone else who didn't have one of those same experiences may still hear of the Red Cross. May say it's a good organization, but probably wouldn't donate any of their time or money to it. So ultimately it's about connection and you know what really is an important what? What is true to your heart? And so over the years, I've definitely supported a number of charities that used to be involved. Very involved with a, an animal shelter in Denver that I was, I volunteer for, but I was the volunteer coordinator. I did their merchandise. I did a lot of different things to the point where I was volunteering probably 40 to 50 hours a week, on a regular basis, and definitely had great passion for that animal shelter. And I still do have great passion for animals. At the same time, we would often be doing fundraising or out in the community, and we would hear from someone who would say something like, well, why are you raising money for animals when there's homeless people on the street? And the fact of the matter is. Typically it would be from someone who also would not help homeless people, or someone who, might say, why are we doing this when veterans can't get good homes, but yet aren't doing anything to help those veterans either. So, whether it's raising funds or donating time, They've always been causes that I've had some connection to either my love for animals. I raise a lot of money for National MS. Society, which is multiple sclerosis, mainly because I have a friend and neighbor who is affected by it. And I also have a former coworkers, husband who's very severely, affected by it. And to me, it's something I can do to try to help. But if nobody has, if someone else doesn't have that connection, then I certainly couldn't fault them for that either. I would think that no matter who you were, we'd all love to see an end to things like cancer. Anyone who's been, even heard about the impacts of Alzheimer's or dementia would want to see that being treated someday. But we all have limited disposable income and limited time. So really I think it's just everyone needs to give what their heart call calls them to. Me personally, I probably wouldn't donate much time or money to. Something I don't necessarily connect with. If someone was raising funds for a mission trip or for a church outing or a religious school or something like that, I may donate a little bit to help out a friend, but I wouldn't give out of the bottom of my heart because I really wouldn't have that connection. So give to what your heart calls you to, I guess.

Peggy Griffith: 19:02

Sure. Yeah when it comes to having productive dialogue with people, particularly who have different viewpoints, I think what's great about this conversation is that we're approaching it like, Hey, we've got something to learn from one another. And not just that we have something to teach someone,

Matt Adams: 19:19

Mm-hmm.

Peggy Griffith: 19:19

that we have something to learn. And, and both religious and non-religious people sometimes fall into stereotyping one another. As you said earlier, something along the lines of religious people aren't all anti-science and critical un thinkers and atheists aren't all lost souls lacking a moral compass. I think we've uncovered that today. So mutual respect and curiosity go a long way in trying to seek first to understand. So as we wrap up our conversation today, I'm curious, what. Question, do you wish religious people would ask more often?

Matt Adams: 20:00

I think I would love to see religious people of all faiths regularly ask themselves why they believe what they believe, and if their actions match those beliefs. Does religion truly bring out their best, or does it serve as a method or a justification for hatred of some kind? Are they going to church because they believe it's a societal family or community expectation? Or is it because they truly get something out of it and feel that their life is better or that their relationship with God is better, as a result? I think if a lot of people really dwelled on that and, ask themselves that on occasion, I think that would help. I would think that would help a lot.

Peggy Griffith: 20:39

Yeah, I like that. Is there a question you wish you could ask religious believers more often?

Matt Adams: 20:47

Well, without getting mean-spirited or anything, I think a good question would be, do you love Jesus? And if yes, then. Do you believe that you follow Jesus' teachings? And if so, can you explain how, I think part of what I was alluding to earlier was the people that go to church and say they believe in Jesus, believe in God, but then don't show it. They don't act it at all. They don't act Christ-like at all. And so, there's certainly many Christians out there who I. Truly believe do follow these teachings of Jesus and want to help society and they wanna make things better. But I think they're starting to become a smaller subset and I think in recent years. Not all of them, of course, but I think a lot of churches have started to take on very political stances on things ranging from covid to healthcare, to homelessness, to immigration, and many of these stances may be directly contradictory to the exact teachings of Jesus. There was a story recently about some pastors who had actually been, punished and some that had been asked to leave for preaching about things like the Beatitudes, the Sermon on the Mount and what makes a person blessed or not. Because the followers felt that was very woke, and wasn't something that we should be teaching about because it went contrary to views and that. That caring for the sick could be viewed as socialism, even though Jesus, did it on the regular basis. And so, I think that's probably what I'd ask is if you really say that you love God, that you love Jesus, what are you doing to prove it?

Peggy Griffith: 22:30

Sure. And I think, one point, too being I think people can tend to, take things out of context make religion or make God fit a mold that they think it should be,

Matt Adams: 22:51

Mm-hmm.

Peggy Griffith: 22:54

based on their human understanding. That as we know, is limited. And, I think, if you are someone who is an, I'm gonna use the word outsider to Christianity, meaning that you maybe weren't raised, with that, and you're looking at someone who is, and you're thinking, wait, this, I'm seeing contradictions here. And it's probably frustrating, and. To your point earlier, it's leading with love is you can't go wrong. There's no, no laws against, against love and understanding. There's no, no law no against that.

Matt Adams: 23:45

Yeah, absolutely.

Peggy Griffith: 23:46

and so I think that's where that delicate line can be.

Matt Adams: 23:51

Mm-hmm.

Peggy Griffith: 23:53

Well, you mentioned that you aren't really out, so to speak with your, atheist beliefs, at least among your family, and why is that and do you see that changing at some point?

Matt Adams: 24:07

I'm certainly not ashamed, of who I am, but I'm also, I don't pretend to be someone I'm not. I'm sure there's certainly people that are atheists, but go to church because it's easier than, admitting to those around them that they're not. So, I don't attend church services to pretend to be a good Christian, for example. I'm, but I'm also not fully out of the closet, I guess you could say, is that, I think if I came out as gay to, to certain family or religious friends, I think that could be forgiven. Coming out as an atheist I think may just be too much. There's plenty of stories of being. People being ostracized from their family or from the community for not sharing the same beliefs. And while I doubt that would happen, and I really have no dependency on anyone to the point where it would impact my life significantly, even if I was, excommunicated or ostracized or whatever you want to call it. But I also see no reason to be hurtful or disrespectful. And I know that those, people that are close to me, they know that I'm not religious and I'm okay with that, and I wouldn't try to change their minds in any way. And just like I doubt they'd be able to change mine. So the last things I'd want is from my beliefs to, negatively impact or to, emotionally injure anyone who cares about me. So I don't see that changing.

Peggy Griffith: 25:27

What are your thoughts about this podcast? Should I change your name?

Matt Adams: 25:31

No, it's okay if I think if someone listens to it, then we'll just call it the will of God. How about that?

Peggy Griffith: 25:36

Oh. I hear you saying you don't want to go outta your way to potentially hurt someone who cares about you. And I think that says a lot about you, Matt. And I wanna thank you for your open and thoughtful conversation. I think it's an extension of the interactions that we've had, over the years and again, it's also the ways that you bring so much positivity to this world and dialogue like this really helps people understand one another better and we are living in a very polarized world, so I think that's very important. So I thank you for that.

Matt Adams: 26:22

Sure. It's been a, it's been a pleasure and, I hope you can, if it works out in the future, that you can use me in future episodes If there's ever, a use for me in the future, I'm happy to be on again, even if it's just for a little three minute, Hey, we're talking about this with another guest. What's your perspective? I love answering questions like that.

Peggy Griffith: 26:38

Well, I think just even in this episode, we've come up with two other topics for a podcast. So I think there's plenty to talk about in this space. And to our listeners, thank you for joining us for this episode of Next Door Gospel. I love sharing this time with you. I hope this conversation with my friend Matt, has given you some perspective to consider remembering that understanding doesn't require agreement, but it does require listening with love and an open mind. So be sure to click the follow or the subscribe button wherever you listen to your podcast. And until we meet again, I wish you a blessed week ahead and as I typically end each episode with a blessing from numbers chapter six. I asked Matt if he was comfortable with this and, if he was comfortable with a blessing, and he said, okay, so may the Lord bless you and keep you. The Lord make his face to shine upon you and be gracious to you. The Lord turn his face towards you and give you peace. Amen. And stay encouraged everyone. Thank you, Matt.

Matt Adams: 27:48

Thank you.