Peggy Griffith: 0:10

And welcome back to Next Door Gospel. I am your host, Peggy Griffith, and I am so happy to be with you today. So I got a joke for you, a Christian and an atheist walk into a bar and plot twist. They have a delightful and a fruitful conversation. I have been looking forward to this episode for several weeks, and I'm excited to bring you along for it. I realize that this might be a sensitive topic for some folks because I know that as human beings, we are naturally drawn to our closely held convictions. Um, we have rigidity around our certainty that things are the way they are, and there's no room for doubt. Well, a quote attributed to Mark Twain says, it ain't what you don't know that gets you in trouble. It's what you know for sure. That just ain't so. So today's episode is about understanding different paths, and our guest today is my friend Matt from Longmont, Colorado. Matt and I go back a long time. We used to work together and have known each other for years. Matt identifies as an atheist, but has also been very open to having thoughtful dialogue and conversation on just about any topic. So our goal today is not to convince or convert the other into a way of thinking, but to listen and understand and grow through these conversations. So I encourage you today to clear your mind of any ideas or notions you may have about atheist or agnostic viewpoints. I suspect that after hearing Matt's story, you may find that we are more alike than we think, and we can love and respect each other in the quest for doing good in this world. So Matt, thank you so much for joining us today.

Matt Adams: 1:57

Yeah. Thanks Peggy. And when I heard about this podcast, I was actually, very, appreciative and I was very excited to see people following their passions. Um, I know that it's something that you've probably had on your heart. I. And it just another way of reaching out to people. And at least since we're in podcast form, I don't have to worry about anyone, throwing anything at me or giving me the old Southern, bless your heart. So that's always good. Um, as you mentioned, we used to work together many years ago and we used to travel a lot. We shared a lot of meals. And we used to sit together at the airport, a lot and we used to have a lot of discussions about different things and, religious beliefs often came up. And I'm definitely one of those people that I have my set of beliefs that have been formed over the years. Um, I definitely do not want, I. To put anyone else down or try to put myself above others in any way, shape or form. The last thing I would want to do is try to say, well, this is what I believe, so you should believe this as well. Um, I love hearing others' perspectives and I love, I. Learning what makes them tick and how they come to, believe what they believe. So I'm, I'm really looking forward to it.

Peggy Griffith: 3:09

That is great. Well, what would you like to achieve by being on the podcast today? Knowing that a majority of the listeners likely hold a deeply held belief that is contrary to yours.

Matt Adams: 3:20

Well, that's a good question. You know, I, I, I think one of the first things I would. Like to accomplish is just letting people know that I am a normal person, just like most atheists are. But I'm also not, uh, every atheist I am, I think I'm very understanding. I think I'm very polite and courteous. Uh, and you as a Christian are not every other Christian and you can't, represent all those people, but we can certainly come together, and we can try and. Learn about what makes each other who we are, and learn that, you know, we're not necessarily boogeyman, we're not stupid, we're not evil, and most of us aren't out there to try to interfere with anyone else's way of life. Um, I love learning about history. I love learning about things like science and astronomy. I love learning about things that, other people in the world are going through that don't match my set of understanding, and I'm all for podcasts or books or anything like that, that really help me open my mind to that type of experience. And so that's really what I'm hoping to accomplish for you and your listeners today.

Peggy Griffith: 4:35

And I love that about you, Matt. Well, before we dive into deeper conversations, I think our listeners would love to hear a bit about your background and your path that led you to your current set of beliefs or non-belief.

Matt Adams: 4:51

Sure. I think, uh, like many, millions of people in America, I grew up with a. Fairly traditional, typical Christian upbringing. Uh, we were in a evangelical free church. We had church, Sunday morning, Sunday evening Services, youth group. In the middle of the week we would do do church camps with youth groups. We would do retreats, uh, things like that. Christian music was always playing on the radio. My mom actually worked for a Christian radio station. That ended up being acquired by K Love many, many years ago. Um, yeah. Um, several members of my extended family are pastors or have done mission work. I was definitely, I. What you would say, a dedicated follower of the church for many, many years. I had, a Jesus tattoo on my chest, at one point, which has been covered up with another tattoo now. But, probably in my teenage years, I started to, have some questions about things that I really couldn't seem to find answers that, that satisfied that curiosity. And despite those questions, I still remain. Dedicated to the church. I still went to church. I still believed in God, everything like that. For years and years and years and after I got out of high school, I started, expanding to other churches, looking for churches that were more designed for, a young adult type audience and thinking that maybe. Maybe I would find one that maybe the problem was with the church that I was attending, not necessarily with churches as a whole. And I spent probably several years going back and forth to different churches and really just not, again, not finding answers to questions that I had. Around that time, I had some fairly basic education about different religions aside from Christianity, and I found it to be quite intriguing, and these weren't just things like Judaism and Islam and, Hinduism. But, what did the Native Americans believe before the missionaries arrived? What, what were their religions like? And, if we were to find a uncontacted tribe in the middle of the Amazon somewhere, chances are probably good that they have some religious beliefs. So what are those beliefs and what makes them who they are? And, and why am I Christian and not these other religions? And. How did my ancestors come to accept Christianity as opposed to how some of these other religions ancestors came to accept their religions? And I think I, I found that to be very intriguing and probably was part of my, initial departure away from the church around that time.

Peggy Griffith: 7:33

Yeah. And you know, I definitely hear you there. I I had similar questions growing up too and, I do remember being a young child and asking my mom, like, where, why were there so many different religions? And which one was better? Well, I mean, that was when, when you're kind of young, that's a deep question, and I know it sounds overly simplistic, but she, she said, well, you know how now I'm from small town in Kentucky, so that hopefully that'll make sense. So to what I'm saying. But um, she said, well, you know how the courthouse is in the middle of town and sometimes we take Main Street to get there, and other times we take Shelby Street to get there. We're all just trying to get there. And one route's not necessarily better than the other.

Matt Adams: 8:19

Mm-hmm.

Peggy Griffith: 8:20

And I know that sounds like so simplistic, but I've always sat with that explanation for a long time. And I've also come to not equate religion with my relationship with God.

Matt Adams: 8:35

I think that's very fair.

Peggy Griffith: 8:36

yeah. And I think that's a topic for like, we could have a whole nother conversation. I'll have to have you back on that. 'cause I think that could be a really fascinating conversation. Uh, but as it relates to your early questioning of religion, would you say that part of that unbelief is somewhat rooted in a religious notion of biblical and errancy, or maybe contradiction that you were seeing in the Bible, like, God is love. But then why does God let bad things happen or something else?

Matt Adams: 9:08

Um, you know, that's a good question too. I don't really think that, played a part as much. I think there was definitely some irony that I noticed from a very young age, of seeing things like talking about God's love, but then using God to hate other people was probably a classic example. And I think one of the. The first that I probably noticed was, the treatment of homosexuality, among the followers and not all followers, of course, you know, this is again, one of those, some Christians believe certain things and some don't. But, we were definitely taught that, God loved everybody. Jesus. Loved everyone. He hung out with the lower rungs of society. He was more about caring for the sick and he was, definitely, not one to wag his finger at people and condemn them or anything like that. He was more love everybody. Um, this is who is blessed, et cetera. And, I think I became friends with some some homosexuals over the years and realized that these were not bad people. Probably like when people become friends with me and realize that, maybe they've been told that atheists are bad people, but you know, they're just fine. And many of them were religious and many of them love God. And many of them love their family and, had committed relationships. But yet. We're being very downcast by members of the church. And that definitely did not sit well with me. But it didn't necessarily make me distrustful of religion as a whole. It more made me just distrust or dislike some of those followers. So, um, I think one of the things that probably stood out for me. That, that may have been part of my separation was the church that I had attended since I was a baby. Around the time of my later years of high school. As I was starting to question things, they decided to rebuild their fellowship hall and remodel the entire church. And part of that was that there was other churches, in the neighborhood that were also getting newer and updated equipment and newer buildings. And so they. Felt they had to compete and other, and, they started doing a lot of aggressive fundraising. They brought in professional fundraisers. They had members of the church give really, impassioned speeches about how giving to the church had made their. Lives better and so forth. And, and it kind of got me wondering about whether God is, about the flash, about the technology, about whether churches really should be competing with each other. And I think that was also probably part of my separation, but I still believe that for the most part, that God truly. Focusing on God as love is definitely a better option.

Peggy Griffith: 11:58

Yeah, and I think your comments, are very. Timely. And I think they're very relevant for today. When you think about, the value of where the church is, it's the building itself versus what it is for the community. Right?

Matt Adams: 12:17

Mm-hmm.

Peggy Griffith: 12:18

Um, and so many congregations and church leaders, I think are pondering that question of what is the value of. Church, and if they're not, well, that's another conversation for another episode.

Matt Adams: 12:33

Yeah. Yeah. And you certainly see, you know, nothing against them, but you see a lot of the megachurches, with the Joel Oste and so forth as the pastors and you know, pastors living in $40 million mansions and buildings that are, super elaborate with parking decks and you know, all the technology you can think of, and thousands of people attending every week and everyone tithing to the church. And, it just kind of makes you wonder if that church is better than, a little podunk church in a quiet little town for really meeting the needs and bringing people closer to God.

Peggy Griffith: 13:11

That makes so much sense. And I think that. Religion. I put up my little air quotes religion as it has been constructed and organized by humans over time. Um, it's gotten to a point where, as I've discussed with my pastor and with others, that it's going through a great unraveling and that's a good thing. Questioning, I think the value that the church brings to its community and to its people. To the world should continually be a part of a church life and a church's existence. Um, yeah, there's been a lot of pain and hurt, even death in the name of religion and I don't think that's what God intends for humanity.

Matt Adams: 14:02

I, I would agree with you very much. Yeah.

Peggy Griffith: 14:06

So in a conversation that we had a couple of weeks ago, when we were planning for this podcast, you mentioned that you have not found or seen evidence or proof that God exists. I would love to hear more about that. What does that evidence mean to you?

Matt Adams: 14:22

Sure. Well, there's an old joke, and I would love to take credit for it, but I, I certainly can't where, a religious person would say God can do anything to which the atheist would reply, have him say hello. Evidence of God used to be found in all kinds of different sources, and over the years, God has meant many different things. And so, it used to be that if the rains fell or didn't, or if the weather was good or bad, or that the, that the harvest was good or not. It was either because the God or the gods, or the ancestors or whatever you want to call it, that invisible being had either been pleased or angered by what you were doing. And, I think people tend to associate things that are good and pleasing with God. So they might look at a beautiful sunset and maybe a view of the Grand Canyon and. Something that really inspires awe, you know, a, a view of the Swiss Alps from right up next to him and say, wow, this is really amazing. This is proof that God exists and that he created this. But you rarely see it on the other side, so, a mundane sunset or a boring state. You know, I would hate to pick on any particular state because I'm sure you have listeners and all of them, but I had the opportunity to drive through North Dakota a couple of months ago, and it is just awful. It is boring. There's nothing to look at. There's no hills, there's no animals, there's nothing. There's nothing great, and nobody would really. Drive through that experience and say clearly God is present here because he gave us this beauty. And so I think it's also important to remember that what one person might, identify as a miracle or proof of God's existence. Another person might look at as a curse or as very bad news. And one of the examples that came to mind when we were discussing this earlier was someone who needs a new heart or another critical organ and they finally get the news that they can get one that could be seen as a miracle, but the fact that they're getting that heart means that someone else. Got very bad news. Someone else passed away unexpectedly. Often a very young person, maybe in a car crash, maybe, in some type of a suicide or maybe some other horrific accident. That's why. They no longer need the heart, but that's why someone else gets to use the heart. So, what could be a miracle to one person may definitely not be a miracle to someone else. So me personally, I can't say I've ever seen anything, that would be evidence of God that couldn't be explained by something else.

Peggy Griffith: 17:15

I hear that, you know, as humans we do tend to lump all the things we can't explain into an act of God. If things are great, it's a gift from God. If things aren't well, then it must be God's will.

Matt Adams: 17:29

Mm-hmm. Or part of a part of God's plan that we just don't understand yet.

Peggy Griffith: 17:34

Yeah. Grief and lament are very real. Very human. And the examples you just mentioned just made me stop in my tracks a little bit, because I really think I'm thinking about how a grieving family may be experiencing that example that you mentioned. And then recognize my call. To comfort and show grace, not to remind them that it's so great that their loved one was an organ donor.

Matt Adams: 18:13

Sure.

Peggy Griffith: 18:14

That doesn't help, them get through their grief. But yeah, that it's very profound, Matt.

Speaker: 18:25

Well, this concludes part one of my interview with Matt, and next week's episode we'll dive into questions about ethics and morality, divine intervention prayer, and how both religious and non-religious people might work together to do good in the world. I hope you found this conversation enlightening today. There are parts of Matt's story that I hear all too often from people who have fallen away from their faith. I realize some of what you heard today might have sounded uncomfortable, but I hope you'll sit with that a little bit and maybe ponder how Matt's story might impact how we are to show up as God's people in the world. How might we approach meaningful conversations free of judgment with others who believe or don't believe the same things we do? I really look forward to continuing this conversation next week. So be sure to click that follow or subscribe button wherever you listen to podcasts. And until we meet again next week, I wish you all a blessed week ahead and to stay encouraged everyone and as I usually end each episode with a blessing from the book of numbers, chapter three, I asked Matt if he was comfortable with this, and of course, being the good sport he is, he said, okay. So may the Lord bless you and keep you. The Lord make his face to shine upon you and be gracious to you. The Lord turn his face towards you and give you peace. Amen.